Germany: reaching the end of History?
Published on by James RogersAlmost twenty-two years ago, during the roll-back of Soviet Russia, and just before the fall of the Berlin Wall, the neo-conservative philosopher, Francis Fukuyama, penned his seminal piece on ‘The End of History?’ Ever since he has been mocked for predicting the end of historical events; of course, this was a silly mis-reading of his thesis, articulated by many who no-doubt had never even bothered to read what he had written. For Fukuyama was not predicting the end of history (with a small ‘h’) but the end of History (with a capital ‘H’), i.e. in the Hegelian sense, that is to say, of mankind’s reaching an ‘Omega Point’ in its social, political and economic evolution. For Fukuyama, the events of 1989 marked our final destination: liberal democracy, not so much actually-existing liberal democracy, although important, but liberal democracy in a philosophical sense.
Fukuyama subsequently recanted part of his own thesis: for him, humanity’s onward technological innovation means that we may one day have the means to alter our own composition, perhaps changing the Platonic way he argues we act and think. Critically, however, while Fukuyama’s Hegelian-Platonic thesis of History has attracted the most attention over the years, it was nevertheless only one component of his work: for a second, perhaps more important, and profoundly pessimistic thesis also manifested itself – one inspired by the German genealogist, Friedrich Nietzsche.
Less so in his original article, but more so in his subsequent book, Fukuyama asks whether societies at the end of History – i.e. those governed by liberal democracy – will come to be populated by what Nietzsche called the ‘Last Men’. These people were very similar to the pitiful creatures John Stuart Mill had so carefully mocked a few decades earlier, when they called on the Union to enter into a cease fire with the Confederate enslavers during the American Civil War:
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing is worth a war, is worse. When a people are used as mere human instruments for firing cannon or thrusting bayonets, in the service and for the selfish purposes of a master, such war degrades a people. A war to protect other human beings against tyrannical injustice; a war to give victory to their own ideas of right and good, and which is their own war, carried on for an honest purpose by their free choice – is often the means of their regeneration. A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature, who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
Like Mill’s ‘miserable creatures’, Nietzsche’s Last Men were people who had closed in on themselves; people concerned only for their own material comfort and personal safety, unwilling to defend themselves or their political and economic interests from numerous external threats; unwilling, even, to use force to help others in distress. Unable to fight to retain their freedom from those who would otherwise try and take it from them, they would themselves inevitably be turned into slaves.
So, where is this all leading? Well, as I read Uli Speck’s insightful new article on German pacifism, I could not help wonder whether Germany has itself now reached the end of History. For as Speck points out, as Germany has become more liberal and democratic, it has also closed in on itself, perpetuating a pacifist security culture and unwilling to countenance the use of military force, either in service of European objectives, or for enlightened purposes (as with the British-French led intervention in Libya). Indeed, Germany seems to have become increasingly comfortable, tucked safely away in the heart of Europe, surrounded on all sides by buffer zones comprised of relatively friendly or weak countries, and ‘consuming’ security provided ultimately by a long-standing guarantee from Britain and France (and, for the time being, behind them, the United States).
However, while Speck’s analysis is excellent, I cannot accept some of his conclusions. He argues that Britain and France must accept – due to Germany’s reservations about the use of force – that the European Union will not become a global power; that Brussels will not be able or willing to use military force in a significant way in service of its interests. Of course, here, he may be right: without German acquiescence, Europeans will not move towards a more robust strategic posture; indeed, their continent risks becoming a ‘Greater Germany’, trapped at the end of History, an old people’s home for the pathetic Last Men – themselves. As Fukuyama points out: ‘The end of history will be a very sad time.’
But fortunately, Germany will not succeed in getting what it wants. Berlin’s Last Men may not be prepared to help develop a ‘harder’ European Union; yet the ‘Super Men’ in London – and particularly Paris – will not accept a ‘soft’ one either. For they know that, in the world beyond the European homeland, the law of the jungle reigns, where the Last Men, if left to their own devices, would almost certainly get snuffed out.
So as American resources are gradually withdrawn from the European peninsula and moved to East Asia in a new age of geopolitics, the British and French – if not through the European Union – will speed up the development of a new platform to guarantee their security and interests in the twenty-first century. Thus, far from getting others to accept ‘soft power’, the Last Men will be faced by an increasingly stark and difficult decision: either ditch the comforting but nevertheless peculiar fantasies, or accept isolation and exclusion; either help Britain and France – who need German technical prowess and industrial might – build a European Union able to protect European interests; or risk setting in motion a period of boredom that will serve to get European history started once again…
• Uli Speck edits the excellent Global Europe news portal.

Good post, James. The European Union really is at a historical juncture, as the Libya crisis has illustrated so neatly. Germany is, arguably, the key to solving many of the puzzles Europeans face. Given its critical mass and power, Berlin has the potential to drag much of Europe down the road of introspection, turning us all into ‘last men’. But if it manages to channel its energy in the right direction, it could turn an increasingly worrying European landscape around, bringing Britain into the European loop and forcing France back into CSDP. If Germany doesnt want to play it will be to Europe’s detriment (and to its own loss). And yes, that would force the British and the French to go outside. But that would only be a fraction of what the three and the rest could do together in the European Union framework. I’m afraid that without a strong Germany the whole dream of European autonomy is doomed. Unless we work this thing out soon all Europeans can kiss goodbye to the twenty-first century.
Yes, Germany refusing to get involved in yet another Western imperialist imbroglio / war for resources heralds the imminent end of European autonomy for the twenty-first century.
@Sublime Oblivion: Zzzzzzzzz…
@James Rogers: I second that motion.
@Sublime Oblivion: like Mr. Rogers pointed out, it is not a real decision ‘to get involved in…war’, but rather a self-imposed refrain to consider military means to protect one’s citizens, interests or values. Nevertheless, I think your statement is correct, but from the view of Oswald Spengler.
Maybe a change of mind will occur, when Uncle Sam does not spoil the Europeans any more…
Great article, thought the following quote was particularly prescient:
Europe may become an a-la-carte power where the geopolitical interests of France and Britain, together or separately, are used to marshal like-minded countries in europe towards coalitions-of-the-willing.
This will be great for France and Britain, but not necessarily great for those who harbour ambitions of a supranational European foreign policy.
Ironically, the only country which could prevent this foreign policy carve-up is Germany, and it has no interest in doing so as it would prove an impediment to its mercantilist ambitions of sourcing materials (Russia) and servicing markets (China).
This future has been pretty much confirmed already by the intergovernmental cooperation signalled in the Entente 2.0.
@Luis: ‘Without a strong Germany the whole dream of European autonomy is doomed’. It is doomed, because Germany doesn’t share the dream of European autonomy. The point of my FRIDE piece is that (a) Germans don’t want to be involved in anything military, and (b) German leaders do not oppose this mood. This is a fact that most outside observers do not get. One reason for that is that German leaders do not openly oppose everything military on an EU level – they let it happen, as long as it remains invisible. But invisible means: irrelevant.
So what can be done? The EU should become a civilian superpower – do everything that can be done short of military intervention. EU is pretty bad in doing a lot of things, for example police training in Afghanistan. There is huge room for improvement. For everything military, things should be left to NATO/coalitions of the willing.
Very much agreed Uli.
@Jedibeeftrix: Ah, but you assume that NATO will last forever and that the United States will always be there to underpin it. It won’t.
@Uli: Thanks for your comment. I think the key question here is not that German leaders do not oppose that mood. The question is that they were the instigators of that mood in the first place. And the reason is that it suits Germany’s strategic interests. I dont believe Germany’s power potential is trapped by civilian power, i.e. some sort of uncontrollable domestic force. I think Germany’s power interests have engineered that discourse in the first place. This said, Germany cannot by itself completely stop CSDP from developing – just as it has not been able by itself to stop certain initiatives in NATO (i.e. the NATO Response Force or, more recently, the whole Libya operation). Germany is not the only responsible for CSDP being stuck in the mud. It is the combination of Germany and Britain (let’s not get all worked up here and remember that Britain opposes CSDP more strongly than Germany does!). I think the last ten years show that clearly.
Whenever France and Britain pushed in the same direction things moved along in CSDP. This was the case in Saint Malo, when the British and the French insisted that CSDP be framed around external crisis management and not territorial defence (as Germany wanted). It was the case with the Headline Goals 2003 and 2010 (neither of which Germany wanted), and it was the case with the creation of the European Defence Agency too, which the British and the French decided to frame around the promotion of expeditionary military capabilities. My point is that if Germany has been able to get away it is only because Britain and France have disagreed themselves. If Britain and France pushed hard for CSDP we would have to see whether Germany can stop it. The Germans would then really be put on the spot. I think they would have no option but to come closer (lest their whole narrative of being West-friendly collapsed). Of course, some compromises would have to be made, and Britain and France should try and integrate German interests somehow (maybe through side payments on other issues).
My point was that Germany is needed, because without its economic prowess and political importance, Europeans cannot seriously aspire to autonomy. As you say, they can only aspire to NATO and coalitions of the willing. But I am afraid that is sugar-coding for strategic dependence on the United States.
NATO will become less important to the United States no doubt, but it will only die if Washington walks away in disgust at a European inability to live up to their commitments, at which point I don’t see how a CDSP helps matters either, for it will be all fur-coat and no knickers.
@Jedibeeftrix: CSDP is whatever we make of it. If the British government took a more active and assertive interest, it would develop into something more substantial than it has to date.
‘CSDP is whatever we make of it.’
Very true, but if NATO fails through lack of European commitment I would say that it is brutally apparent that constituent powers of Europe are disinterested in acting as a collective great power.
@Jedibeeftrix: Yes, most Europeans are wholly disinterested in being a collective great power, just as most French, British and Americans probably once were. The point is that in order to become a great power, the political and economic elites of a political community must provide vision and leadership.
The elites’ disinterest in security and foreign policy is a consequence of NATO, of their willingness to get defence on the cheap – in the form of the United States military. When that ceases to exist – as it surely will in this century as the Americans focus their attention elsewhere – Europeans, Britain included, will be left to their own devices. The sooner we form an effective CSDP, the better!
Ignoring the ‘collective great power’ theme altogether, I think perhaps if NATO fails for lack of European public and leadership interest in being ready and willign to kill-people-and-break-things if needed, I don’t think much can be expected of CSDP.
No person on earth with dreams of collective superpower for the simple purpose of “being a superpower” should be trusted. This doesn’t even describe the most fantastic caricatures of Americans that even academics can draw.
The elites’ disinterest in security and foreign policy, I feel, has far more to do with Social Programming, positive reinforcement for the Kabuki phrases inimical to taking any serious interest in security and foreign policy, and what seems to amount to operant conditioning in academia. When people wonder why negotiating with Ahmedinejad or Kim Jong Il doesn’t produce results, and don’t derive the obvious conclusions for fear of saying certain things to themselves, it isn’t logical, or reasonable, it’s conditioned.
Taking a brutal lout at his word is not logical, reasonable, or humanistic in the least. It just enables more abuse of vulnurable populations, and promoted disbelief in the population. Nonetheless, this is what a generation of thinkers has been prompted to believe is good: plenty of carrots, with a mental barrier to the use of a stick.
I remain unconvinced that there is a strong driving force pushing Europe towards a common defence.
I think that French and UK ambitions – or ambitions in some French or UK cercles – for Europe to become a player in global security is not shared by most Europeans. You could even argue that it is French or UK nostalgia for Empire which is driving these ambitions.
It is easy to argue that a) Europe must get its acts together to play a global role, and b) there are many new threats (cyber, terrorism and alike), and c) one day we may wake up and the US is gone. But these points are not compelling enough to convince majorities to invest in military, and to send citizens in other countries to kill and be killed. People simply feel safe in Europe today, not like during the Cold War.
If this is the general mood in Europe, it is hard to see how elites can build a European army. They cannot do it against the will of the majority.
The only game changer would be, lets say, a Russian attack on Poland. Something of that size. But that’s more than unlikely.
All that could be quite true, Uli, but there is also a point in European demilitarism where Europe becomes a strategic point of risk to the rest of the world. Never mind the idea that the US might evaporate some day – the purpose of the US on this earth is not merely the stabilization of Eurasia (nor is this Canada or Australia, or any other society’s raison d’etre).
The European continent is not some out-of-the-way place, it is a critical operator in the global economy. For it to be easily scared and threatened leaves the advanced world’s economic network (and with that the well being of all of its’ inhabitants) at the risk of anyone who can spook the humble villagers of Europe.
It’s not empire fantasies that I’m talking about, it’s ceasing to be the world’s ignition paper and poor cousin when it comes to general stability.
It’s only one of many points of risk, including whatever dystopian fear of the future it was that convinced Europeans to effectively stop reproducing. People can yammer on about windmills and waterless toilets all they like, wasting as much effort as so many do on some fake enviromentalist-agitated apocalypse and then also not making babies alone is enough to tell the world that the continent has given up on playing any sort of role in civilization’s future. It has “we’re not serious” written all over it.
If there is any turning point in this Das ist hier mein eigene Schrebergarten mentality, it will be when gas supplies are choked off for no good reason on Boxing day, or a human disaster of some significant size leaves them to believe that Europe’s nation states have rendered themselves helpless to attend to it.
The turning point will be the thing that they could stand less than some hypothetical Russian invasion, but rather kind of chaos that life inevitably hands all of us.
“a) Germans don’t want to be involved in anything military, and
(b) German leaders do not oppose this mood. This is a fact that most outside observers do not get. One reason for that is that German leaders do not openly oppose everything military on an EU level – they let it happen, as long as it remains invisible. But invisible means: irrelevant.”
I agree with the first two points. But these facts are a static description of the situation today.
I completely disagree with the assumption that anything invisible is irrelevant. It’s not. Otherwise the german government wouldn’t try to support invisibility on some topics.
Example: If german troops in Afghanistan act more aggressively and don’t just act as development aid workers, this is relevant, as it affects the whole operation and it’s purposes.
The perspetive of anyone on reality does not affect “the reality” itself directly.
“So what can be done? The EU should become a civilian superpower”
James Rogers mentioned the term “pacifist security culture”. Most academicaly educated germans (engaged in conflict research) would probably state that this is the pinnacle of security culture.
The point german pacifists often seem to ignore is, security is generated by force. You can like or dislike this fact, but noone should ignore it. If having a pacifist attitude means that you don’t have a capable force at your disposal and you let everyone know that you’ll never be willing to use any force, you don’t have any security at all. You’re dependend on the goodwill of perhaps less pacifist actors.
UN-Peacekeeping missions are an example. If you’re not willing to act like you could be a threat, you will not be taken serious by forces which doesn’t have such self imposed restrictions.
In the history of conflict and great powers, such a thing like a civilian superpower never existed. There were great powers which used force more aggressively or less. But there was never a superpower which didn’t have the ability to use force, or alone made clear that it has the opportunity and would use it, if necessary.
“I remain unconvinced that there is a strong driving force pushing Europe towards a common defence.”
I think this point (and the arguments of James Rogers and Uli Speck) reflects the differences in strategic thinking on the one hand and analyzing of politics on the other. Both patterns of analyzing certain circumstances are important, especially with regards to conflicts and strategy, which are undoubtedly of such a complex nature that any perspective on them is limited in terms of “getting the big picture”.
I don’t see any driving force pushing Europe towards a common defence, at the moment. But I’m pretty sure that the only way to guarantee security in Europe, is the development of a commen defence. The question is, will the EU be able to do this in time. Even in germany the mood, regarding a more aggressive foreign policy, has already changed. Fueled by different pressures. Surely, support for involvement of troops in Afghanistan falls. But minimized support is due to the inability of troops to achieve success. A commen kind of discussing this matter in the german population is: “Our troops achieve nothing, so they should not be there and die for nothing”. Compared to discussions before the Kosovo involvement, this represents a remarkable change.
Before the commitment in the Kosovo, the discussion unfolded upon whether german troops should be deployed. Today, this discussion and public opinion is connected to the fact, whether success could be achieved or not.
“The only game changer would be, lets say, a Russian attack on Poland.”
What is a “game changer”? It’s not a real turning point. It’s a certain action in the past, on which basis scientists say history has changed. I think the most “game changers” are “just” observable actions, which allow to pin down important changes on a timescale. But there are barely perceivable changes generating an environment, in which such observable turning points take place and can be observed.
Sorry for my cruel english!
@ James Rogers
“The elites’ disinterest in security and foreign policy is a consequence of NATO, of their willingness to get defence on the cheap – in the form of the United States military.”
I really enjoy reading your articles and I think you’re a great thinker when it comes to strategy. Nonetheless, sometimes your conclusions depend on a construction of “grand strategy” and out of, what I call, a “cold war focus”.
The elites (and populations) disinterest in security policy is not a consequence of NATO. It’s a consequence of the amount of security given at the moment, and in the future. Europe is secure and it will stay secure. The USA doesn’t act defensive. It doesn’t defend Europes, nor it’s own interests.
Why is that? Because of a certain persistence, in terms of the perception of ones own military power, fueled by cold war experiences. And the persistent (in western societies practically out-dated) believe that the status of the only remaining superpower will generate economic and military success.
Military power is important when you tend to secure certain limited areas which you want to “exploit”. Of course, military power enables the USA to reach any point on the globe, secure an area of interest. But all the military power is not enough to transfer societies, what would be necessary to transfer military in political and economic success.
Western forces can’t (and this is a great achievment) act ruthless, what limits the social and political impact on societies. The transformation of societies is a key in generating economic advantages out of military actions.
In Iraq and Afghanistan the US-Government acted on solely military terms. But an overwhelming military power will have one consequence. The enemy will not fight an open battle, as he is sure that he would be defeated. He will avoid the opponent force to draw economic or politcal success out of military actions. And he will do this very effectively.
USA made one mistake in their strategic plans. They thought the enemy would be retarded/stupid and would be unable to react and develop a counter-strategy.
Why do I mention this? Because the stated points are pretty obvious and why should anyone rely on the USA as a security-generating power? The USA can’t guarantee any security to Europe. In fact, in the last decade it made Europe a less secure place.
You mention security and foreign policy. But are you talking about security in military terms? As, in military terms Europe is secure. Nuclear capacities guarantee that. There might be potential for conflicts inside european societies, but it doesn’t affect geostrategic security directly.
This is what I meant in my first sentence. The disinterst of europeans in security isn’t fueled by the NATO, but by an already achieved and reliable level of security. (And by the fact that most people tend to believe it will always be that way)
The whole story changes completely, if we talk about wealth, not security. NATO will have it’s function as a security generating institution and a communication platform, but this function will be much less important than it was 20 years ago. National security is today basically generated by nuclear capacity, what has not that much influence on the capability of securing wealth.
Security can be generated by nuclear capacity, wealth can not. North Korea for example. It is a very “secure” country, doesn’t have to fear any military threat by foreign forces. But it can’t generate wealth out of pure military security.
If Europe doesn’t unite and develop a consistent CSDP, it will be save, but it will have a diminished influence on his economic situation, and this nwould, in my opinion, lead to a very aggressive acting and volatile policy of different european alliances. Not able to act as a global power, but certainly a uncalculable factor in global security. For example using the instrument of privatizing war to secure ressources.
One quick note here before I start commenting: Why is Italy always left out of any talks of an integrated military and why is nobody every pounding on them for not getting their acts together in military spending? Italy could have the same military power as France and the United Kingdom if it was spending as much, but people treat it like some retarded kid that shouldnt be bothered with any responsability. Surely not just Germany, but Italy, Spain and Poland could contribute massively to the European Union’s military strength if pressured to do so.
Firstly the assumption that everyone seems to be making on the blog that the US is a security partner of Europe seems to me to be totally false. The US is keeping Europe down, that it’s the only strategy in Europe for the US. In fact I think the US would abandon its obligation as an ally should Europe be attacked by a major power since they would consider it beneficial to be rid of their biggest economic rival. But even so, Russia is no where nearly strong enough to take on EU, Europe can mass produce a Russian military every single month in wartime mode, there is simply no reason in the world to maintain NATO.
When Europeans wanted to launch Galileo on the same wavelength as the American’s GPS, the USA blatently threatened to blow it out of the sky. When all the major players in the EU were ‘secretly’ talking of forming a common defence force, Rumsfeld went ballistic demanding to know whats going on, like he was patronising some teenagers. The only reason why the USA wants Europe to pay more money to their military budget is so that it can be channeled to NATO for subsidising American military adventures around the world (and cleaning up after such adventures with peacekeepers, etc.).
It might be rather argued that Europe is currently occupied by the US, while this is the case there will never be any serious boost to military spending in Europe.
The key to making EU a military power is to sqash NATO and to implement Verhofstadt’s ideas of multi-stage EU integration in all fields, economic governance, military, foreign policy, meaning countries pick and choose what to integrate, those that dont want to, they don’t. The main obstacle to European integration is the notion that every country needs to be on the boat, therefore the boat never leaves the harbour. If the UK, Sweden and Denmark would have been required to adopt the euro, the euro would still not exist today. If integrated economic governance in the eurozone was on the pick and chose level, then most countries would have jumped on board, and then later the rest of the countries would have too, probably we wouldnt have the Greek problem today. Same with military co-operation, few countries would start, the others would follow.
As soon as NATO is finished, Europeans would shape up and accept their defence responsabilities and I doubt any country in Europe would spend less than two percent of GDP within five years of the disintegration of NATO.
@Jon: That is the strangest comment that I’ve read in ages. Italy is not asked what it thinks because not only is it preoccupied with internal and coastal security, it is not a traditional front-presenting participant in operations, and makes few outspoken statements in the area of security. No government has to ask it to ‘put up or shut up’.
As to thinking the United States as generic bugaboo, you just learned how to not be taken seriously by people who are or were involved in European security matters. I also think your dramatic telling of a Rumsfeld opinion is more of a fantasy than reality, if not a retelling of what some opinion writer thinks/wishes might have been true.
The European Union’s Member States in large part would spend less on security without pressure from one another and and from the United States. Step back and look at these societies from a distance: they don’t to any degree even want children. If people aren’t interested in even forming the future generation of your own family and society, where do you get the idea that it will even be receptive to take on a reasonable, population – proportional role in security, or even peacekeeping or disaster relief for that matter.
@Jon: Italy isn’t taken seriously because the country does not have a strong centralised government, which has shown over previous decades a willingness to use armed force – when necessary, unilaterally – in service of Italian foreign policy (unlike the United Kingdom or France). Italy cannot build up that type of capability because of the nature of Italy; to some extent, the same applies to Spain and Germany (and, indeed, almost every other European Union Member State, with the exception of Britain and France, and perhaps the Netherlands and Sweden).
@Joe: You seem keen to articulate a lot of American right-wing cant about European birth rates. Granted, in several Member States – Germany, Italy, Spain, Poland, almost all of Eastern Europe – the fertility rate is very low and stagnant. But in the British and French case (is there a theme here?) the fertility rate is not so far behind that of the United States; indeed, in both Britain and France’s case, it has risen in recent years. Last year, Britain experienced its largest natural growth in population for over half a century.
Host:
It isn’t a meme repeated for reasons which can be attributed to a characterization of the commenter. When did you last hear the sound of children in the street? What does this say about the confidence, future-looking, and risk tolerance capacity of a society?
How many people do you know who have more than one child? What is the age of those new parents you know? Does a generation made up of single adult children of older parents (those who waited well into their 30′s,) have a stomache for defense if they think that appeasement and checkbook politics will not let them ‘get through’ one situation after the next?
Does a society which has ever-diminishing numbers of siblings, and then of cousins have an innate ability to transfer its’ values and beliefs forward? Isn’t it just going to be trying to raise a workforce, fighting force, culture of voluntary assistance… out of a population whose natural propensity will be to just be in it for themselves?
Besides, you’re looking at population growth, not birth rate.
It’s not meant as a slag, it’s meant to make any authors of theories about the future aware of a stumbling block: the outright absence of human will.
Thats a hilarious comment Joe(you are not the famous Joe the Plumber are you?)
Firstly you strike me as a person never even been to Europe. “When did you last hear the sound of children in the street?” Thats almost too absurd to even bother with.
Secondly birth rates in all of Europe is on the rise(google Europe birth rate on the rise). Stagnating birth rate in the world is a peculiur thing which arent any hands on explanations for, your explantion that people dont want to have babies is a typical talking point for an American right wing evengalelist, falling only short off blaming liberal policies and lack of christian fundamentalism for it. It should be mentioned that ALL NATO countries have an aging population and that includes the US as well.
“where do you get the idea that it will even be receptive to take on a reasonable, population – proportional role in security, or even peacekeeping or disaster relief for that matter.”
Europe champions peacekeeping and disaster relief. When USA has problem with natural disaster, Europe is always there willing to help, which is never the case when Europe has one on its own(Greek wildfires for example). EU has peacekeeping all over the world and to a much greater extent then the US and contributes more to combatiting things like piracy off the Somali coast.
Regarding Italy, I wasnt refering to Sarkozy ringing up Berlusconi and consulting him with this or that, I mean why are people here on the blog not pounding on Italians as they are pounding on Germany to get their acts together. If Italy has a structural problem that prevents this, than that needs to be fixed, simple as that.
The solution is sqashing NATO, as I said on the next thread of this blog: Necessity makes every nude woman a seamstress. Meaning when out of NATO, european countries would wake and smell the coffee and it would speed their pooling of resources and manpower in military, boost military spending and cause a moral awakening that would pack EU nations tighter together relying on each other not on Americans and NATO.
Jon: [Edited by the moderator.]
I agree that without NATO, the EU members states might be forced to re-evaluate their posture. This notion, however, of having to act out some childish tantrum doesn’t lend much weight to your argument, especially since it depends on a large population having the “moral awakening” that you think they’ll have. That’s a long bet to take.
Consider this: if the terms of membership are so hard and awful and a form of servitude, why haven’t states left (apart from a ancient act of French impetuousness that forced us to change every code and frequency in 48 hours) ?
Europe, whomever you think that is, in case you haven’t noticed champions everything under the sun that a government thinks will make it’s poop smell like daisies. What it can’t quite manage is large scale, rapidly deployed, and highly responsive peacekeeping and disaster relief. They’re getting there, but their responsiveness isn’t there, just as the airlift capacity wasn’t there in the ’05 tsunami, nor to the degree that they wanted it to be in Haiti. It just wasn’t. Hearts bled, but what does that count for?
The purpose of my prior comment, unlike yours, is not to humiliate someone you don’t agree with.
Tell me: what does a society where the productive working age population and fighting force is made up to a large degree of single adult children of aged parents look like, and will it take risks? What geostrategic decisions does a population whose mean age is rising make?
Jon: [Edited by the moderator.]
Well, tolerate you say, obviously when I hear Americans, which come from a society infested with deep anti-European culture, I challenge them if they blur out some absurd statements. You made it sound like babies in Europe are as rare as killer whales are in the Alps. I think you would appreciate why I would say you strike me as a person never even been to Europe. Im not going to tackle some of the nonsense in your feedback since it is plain moronoic such as ‘Europe, whomever you think that is, in case you haven’t noticed champions everything under the sun that a government thinks will make it’s poop smell like daisies.’ (Have credible commentators like Glenn Beck been telling you stories about European governements and their socialsim?)
But statements like these dont strike me as odd when they come from Americans since by a shot in the dark I would say 80% of images drawn up of Europe in the American media and Hollywood are directly negative, 15% are partial and 5% are positive images. If European government disagree with your own policy, all effort is put forward by the “free media” in the US to ridicule any arguments coming from the other side of the Atlantic. Still Americans cant stop complaining about Anti Americanism in European media which is minimum at best, almost non existent in my view. A partner like that is not a reliable one.
Regarding NATO membership, firstly many European nations are not members of NATO, including western european countries, Sweden, Finland, Ireland, Switzerland and Austria. Only a paranoid person would consider them in more of a threat from the Russia then lets say Germany. Secondly one country leaving on its own doesnt create a European military and all efforts for a combined drive to create a European military is staunchly opposed by, not the Russians, not the Chinese, but the US.
The easiest way to disintegrate the Atlantic Alliance is if the US would leave NATO, and it would become a European defense alliance instead. I have no problem with good relations with the US but from a strategic point a view I would favor a military alliance with Russia, even though I relate more to American culture then Russian one.
Jon: No, we don’t want a military alliance with Russia. Nothing could be further from our interests! Who an earth would want to get saddled with that autocratic regime, economically impoverished and socially broken? The European Union is for European countries. It’s kind of in the name…
Joe: No, many European countries are experiencing growing birth rates again. Seriously, go walk around any British or French city – you’ll see lots and lots of children!
Jon: [Edited by the moderator.]
James: The birthrate curve is picking up regionally, but the effect takes much longer than you think. Optimism is a victim.
James: Right, except that I wasnt talking about Russia joining the European Union or being incorporated into an European military but as I mentioned I would be interested in a military alliance with Russia. We have had military alliance with the United States and Canada for seventy years without them being in Europe.
Regarding economically impoverished and socially broken, that is also the case with many Eastern European countries and I dont see that as a reason not to partner up with them in a military alliance. Russia has not been autocratic since the tzars, although I realize you said that as figuretively speaking. In terms of geography, business relations and energy Russia should be a natural partner to Europe. Europe is changing much faster than people realize. Look at all the ex communist countries in East Europe that were our enemies only twenty years ago, they are now inside the European Union and our best friends, if someone had told us thirty years this would be the case he would be said to be a crazy conspiracy theorist.
James – I live part year in Paris, I don’t get that sense at all.
Joe. France has very similar birthrate as USA, so if you are not seeing any children in France but many children in USA then this must be more in your head than in reality.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_birth_rate
On the first table of this link France has 12.2 and USA has 14. In the second table and from another source USA has 13.82 has 12.57. Thats almost the same birthrate. EU has a collective entity has pretty low though 9.90 but certainly not that low that you would have problems remembering when you “last heard children playing in the street”.
Jon – you scornfully asked my experiences, and I gave it to you.
I’ll leave the leapt conclusions to you, such as ‘da ladies’ being impressed. It would likely disturb my wife. Thankfully, I keep the likes of you out of my life, and that my being isn’t any of your concern. I shudder at what a shambles that would be with you at the wheel.
Obviously you asked to fill a deep empty well in your life. Thankfully I had vines to trim while you were at it. I certainly hope you find yourself sufficiently amused. There’s more, but since you can’t tolerate your own questions being addressed, I don’t see any need to address your passive-aggressive questions any further.
As to infections of anti-european culture, that requires a grain of salt. Normally, the passivity Americans have about Europe are addressed with the supposition that Americans are too stupid to find int on a map, etc. So I think you can take that idea off the table. In decades of my direct experience, it is European resentment and anti-americanism that is practically ubiquitous. If it isn’t one thing that’s the subject of pointless complaint, it’s its’ opposite. It’s also numbingly repetitive, employing the same silly phrases and assumptions year after year. So why don’t you react to what people actually say when you address an issue, and not what you imagine their compatriots are thinking? m’kay, Skipper?
One could just as easily and impirically say that inter-European relations have a more stupifying and debilitating effect on external policy actions of France of the UK as NATO has ever had. So don’t single the US out. If you can’t grasp that, why then would France and the UK have had to turn to the US for partnership if not to let the weight of that avoid paralytic euro-summitting to expend as much ordinance, time, and oxygen as the battle campaign.
I also did not confuse Europe for the EU. It’s why one has to always use qualified explanations such as “EU members of….” etc. All things European seem to require endless qualification, phrases and notions that are off limits. Nothing new there.
James – the data on France is indeed in the area of 13/M, but that’s only 15% of the EU. On the whole it requires consideration in any conceptualization of the future. I also wouldn’t get too caught up with comparisons with the US, because I don’t quite see the use, outside of feeding a rather typical distracting preoccupation with the US. Ignore my analogy if you found it prickly.
As to Russia, I feel the same way you do. There have to be terms of agreement, but the ideas of a close alliance with a nation whose only tools are acting as a spoiler, threaten meddling in tendentious bilateral affairs, and reminding people of their nukes has problems.
Oh man this is really something, I hope the moderator wont delete this.
Ok, my mother tongue isn’t English but are words like: “scornfully”, “shambles”, “vines”, “passivity”,”ubiquitous” a part of your normal vocabulary,
After half of your feedback I decided to stop reading and said to myself, the guy isnt making any sense. I mean you obiviously think I disregard American opinion off since most off you are tossers, which is not true, I try to evaluate your logic even though most of the time it is hard and even impossible to chew on.
Why on earth are you trying to make everything sound much much more intellectiual than it needs to be.
But compartmentalizing everything into fancy words and spelling wont make me think like “WOW this guy knows what he is talking about”.
Give me another feedback addressing what I was talking about please.
I’m not out to impress you. I’m not some kind of supremacist who needs to be agreed with. I speak in the manner that I know to. It isn’t highly intellectual, even for someone who works in construction engineering as I do.
If you want to use your own language, feel free to. I though that was what the whole pan-Euro Star Wars Cantina thing was about anyway: we all end up having to use the simplest thoughts to be understood.
Bear in mind that the topic of conversation/comparison is not the United States. The topic has nothing to do with the US. You need to free yourself from what is frequently found to be an unhealthy preoccupation.
THAT is actually the foundation of my logic. Back to basics, a stong, cohesive large-enough portion of the European continent, this is as it has always been, in the interest of the US. Goal: to not carry the weight of backing us European security and mediating between European parties after 65 years.
In combat, they say that the only way hme is through the batttle area. For the US, the only way home is through the uniting of European defense into something substantive that functions sufficiently to secure Europe. I don’t think the US even needs a “close partner” in this respect – just a capable entity. If not geostrategically, than at least in it’s own region.
That disorganization and general isolationism has almost certainly allowed parties in the near east and north Africa engage in chaos knowing that Europe developed a distaste for intervention.
For example, the mere threat that the gunboats would show up should have stopped the Serbian-Bosnian war, or at least limited it’s scale. No gunboat, no intervention = no limitations. Nearly 20 years later, the migration flows and past destruction still has consequences, even in core Europe. It must happen.
I think Jon is right if he assumes that the USA doesn’t have the “biggest” interest in a really effective european CSDP. Certainly the USA would appreciate a stronger european military, but not on a level that would diminish its own global influence.
Nonetheless noone can blame the USA for the current european incapability to develop a strong common defence. Many people seem to think that building such would be an easy task. It’s not.
In fact, it is very demanding to build an operational and efficient military force out of different european units. Even on the scale of a regiment or a brigade. Even if today leading european politicians would decide to push CSDP, it would require far more than a decade until an integrated, efficient european force developed.
In my opinion eventually it will be developed, as it is needed and this will be more and more obvious.
Hi Zerberus.
I dont blame the US for anything. They are a super power and obviously they will be looking out for their own interest which, excluding UK, every power does.
Im not saying that developing a military out of European nations will be easy, not at all. In doing this there would need to be a confrontation between UK and USA and UK would need to be able to stand its ground and say something like: “We like USA, and we want to be partners with them, but we also want to develop our own capabilities and interests and our strategic interests are of primary concenrt from now on”. In current political culture of Britain this seems to be impossible.
If you look at post WW2 world politics, USA has been consistently aiming to weak Britains role in the world. (Americans might find offense to hear that and claim Im anti American, but if we leave such petty emotions aside, this is the truth). Suez Crisis is obvious example. In this crisis France realized on the spot that USA was not interested in an equal partnership or even sharing some roles in the global community. UK decided it wanted more of the same and therefore started being close to the US which is a mindblowing policy reaction to the Suez Crisis. US focus on “bringing France” back, for example higher positions in NATO etc, while UK has an appearance of accepting anything coming from Washington with a smile and thank you note has benefitted France much more than UK.
Falkland war was an interesting case. Im still amazed that UK didnt demand that US would not help UK with overwhelming manpower and resources to reclaim the Falkans. We were talking about attack on UK territory, article 5 wasnt even mentioned in this respect(attack on one is an attack on all in NATO) but still september 11 attacks where considered to be article 5 instance, an attack from Afghanistan government which is really a weak argument, especially compared to the Falklands(of cours 7/7 bombing in UK didnt touch article 5). Imagine if someone attacked Hawaiithe and Europe would not respond to help, we would have massive uproar in the US, bashing of Europe, boycotts etc. UK was satisfied with the US “allowing” them to reclaim the islands.
Grenada is also a case in point, very bold action from USA, not even considering what UK would think, and Reagan even lying to Thatcher claiming there was nothing going on(the same day the invasion was starting).
Things like Italian military structures are a hurdle but UK’s junior mentality towards the US is even a bigger problem. Dismantling NATO would get us more than half the way of making EU a super power.